geekfeminismwikiaorg-20200214-history
Talk:Meta:Community Portal
Category:Community Welcome to the GFW discussion hub We are a community of women and allies from various geek communities, from professional fields like Science and Open Source Software to hobbies like Gaming and Science Fiction fandom. If you are new here, please read: * Geek Feminism Wiki FAQ * Feminism 101 * Resources for men (especially if you are male) ---- Older discussions Older discussions are eventually (after about a year, at this point) archived. Here's a list: *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/Logo *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/General todo *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/Excel Diva *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/Cleaning up the Gaming section *User talk:84.74.106.21 ("Concerns") *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/IRC channel *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/Red links *Talk:Meta:Community Portal/Moving off Wikia TV Tropes' rape articles Per the GF blog and comments TV Tropes have deleted pretty much every article with "Rape" in the title. Skud's moved one here at Rape As Back Story. Should we move the others? Considerations: #licencing is OK (CC BY-SA) #how many pages are we talking about here? #are all of them in-scope for this wiki? One possibility, if you aren't certain about one of the pages, is to copy it to User:YOURNAME/Article Title, and then discuss it here before moving it to the main namespace. Thayvian 22:53, June 25, 2012 (UTC) :I'm a TV Tropes moderator, and can provide you with the most recent version of any of these articles upon request. They were (hopefully temporarily) cut because of yet another Google threat to cut off our ad income if we didn't remove content. Matthew Jude Brown 00:18, June 26, 2012 (UTC) ::BTW: TVT does not use MediaWiki and thus its wikitext is not compatible with here in many respects; however, some things do cross over and in most cases the replacements should be fairly obvious. Matthew Jude Brown 00:37, June 26, 2012 (UTC) I think we should also consider how much we want to change the pages if we do move them across. Are they purely archival, or do we want to continue to edit them to be more GF-y? I could go either way on that, or either both ways -- that is to say, keep an archival copy somewhere, and also develop a GF-style article on the same topic, with cross-links between the two. --Skud 01:32, June 26, 2012 (UTC) : An archival copy would probably be good, although wiki software is kind of a bad choice by definition for archiving (it would be possible to edit-protect the pages, though). So I'd probably be in favour of the both-ways approach: stuff ending up in our main namespace should be GF-ised or at least have the potential to be GF-ised in future, and maintaining the original copies somewhere. Thayvian 02:25, June 26, 2012 (UTC) :: Note that if you paste in the original text, save it, and then edit it, the initial revision to the article is an archive copy, which you can link to as and when needed. This would keep an archive without having to have it in the "public-facing space" of the GF Wiki. Matthew Jude Brown 03:11, June 26, 2012 (UTC) :I just heard about this on TheMarySue and followed a link here from geekfeminism.org. I'd like to help with backing up the articles here before the Google cache versions disappear unless that's what geekfeminism.org is doing. Has the User:YOURNAME/Article Title method been agreed upon? Has anyone made a master list of what's gone from TVTropes yet? Please let me know what I can do to help. —Scott (message me) 17:02, June 26, 2012 (UTC) We from the TV Tropes Mirror are trying to do the same. Here's what we have so far, and you're welcomed to reuse them (a link to the pages you got them from wouldn't hurt us too much). Note that most are edited for MediaWiki code. Thanks to User:Koujist12 for pointing this discussion out to me. Note also that these are "unsanitized" versions (that is, maybe not very politically correct) and you may want to take a look over them and see if they're ok for your community here. I may try to make "off-site" versions to relieve you of the red links if you give me time, but you're welcomed to use them as they are now. --Anime Addict 13:32, June 27, 2012 (UTC) : I've gotten fairly accustomed to Mediawiki code, so if you all need help converting pages, just give me a holler and I'd be happy to lend a hand. Koujist12 14:53, June 27, 2012 (UTC)Koujist12 Given the existence of Tropes Mirror, I don't know that I'm terribly inclined to bring there all here as well personally. Maybe the thing to do is something like: # write some kind of Rape tropes in geek media page # discuss the feminist concerns generally on that page # link where appropriate to TV Tropes, Tropes mirror and similar, with trigger warnings or notes that they don't have our editorial policy. We can always fold in content from Tropes or its mirrors on an ad hoc basis if someone wants to write an extended treatment of a particular rape trope. Any other editors here got opinions? Thayvian 02:57, June 28, 2012 (UTC) Can people doing the bulk import from TV Tropes please stick the template at the top of the pages? We can fix the wording later, but it will at least help people understand the context of the page. It will also add the "Imported from TV Tropes" category automatically. Thayvian 03:10, June 28, 2012 (UTC) : I've already imported all the Rape Trope articles that were originally on TV Tropes before the Google imposed curtain fell, but I would be happy to comply with your instructions, and I'll inform my colleauge at the Tropes Mirror Wikia of your wishes. : On a related note, we also have copies of some of the pages cut due to the new content policies (like the original TV Tropes page on the rape centric hentai game Rape Lay, among others that may be of interest to your wiki. Some we have reconstituted for our own site, and some are pending until more pressing matters are handled. : Regardless, would it be appropriate to donate these pages or links to our own site with copies of these works for your use/reproduction, and if so, which pages do you need, how do you wish we go about this, and through what channels should we do so to best accomodate your community? : Koujist12 04:49, June 28, 2012 (UTC)Koujist12 Sorry, but the imports are "as is". I've tried to adapt them slightly to this wiki in terms of formatting to remove red links, but other than that it's your wiki and you can edit them however you want and remove most of the templates (including the spoiler templates, it's your call). The other "templates" inside the text are "Wiki words" used by TV Tropes.org or make the same name on the article. You're welcomed to remove the too, I usually omit them on the mirror because it's easier for me to create them with that text inside them since they're on so many articles. Again, these are just "rough drafts" if you will, you can personalize them as you wish, to be fit for your wiki and its goals. --Anime Addict 15:54, June 28, 2012 (UTC) Geek Feminine Wiki Revitalization First, it can be helpful to have a resource like the Geek Feminism Wiki. It could be a place for women to go, to find links to projects, connections to those who might help them, resources for conferences, speaking opportunities, users groups, and so on. Originally, I thought that was the intent and vision of the site, but maybe that was my personal vision for it. ;-) As with most websites, over time, a voice emerges, a presence. Right now, my sense is that this site is much more aligned with a political point of view than technology. It also seems that the aspect of feminism that is addressed is more focused on the challenges encountered than it is on the success women are having and how lessons might come from those experiences. Combining those focuses, the site has an angry voice, and rightly so, given the topic focus, and with that comes vengeness. I think that is a fair word, and very possibly one that the organizers might not disagree with. The incidents pages, the name and shame approach, is not welcoming. I I do believe this site in any represents a broad swath of women in technology, From my perspective, this site represents a very narrow point of view. Are you willing to involve others to help redefine the site so that it does represent more than the unfortunate and negative events but also the successes we can celebrate and emulate? In the interest of clarity and openness, my hope would be that we can remove the incidents sections completely. Adopt more of a learning approach where we actually embrace those issues, explain other ways something might be done, reach out, use humor, put a huge focus on incidents that are intent on increasing involvement of women, and head that direction, leaving behind the more punative approach. I believe this could be a real benefit to the geek community, as a whole. My perception is that everyone would like to see better involvement with women. There is fear of this group. When people are afraid, they cannot learn. I would hope we could address those perceptions and turn it around so that the community looks at this group as a support, not a judge, jury, and executioner, but rather those people who listen and care and help and take me as I am. If those things sound good, I would like to help and find others to help as well. Thank you for your consideration of this idea AmyStephen (talk) 19:43, February 24, 2013 (UTC) :Hi there AmyStephen. I think that the Timeline of Incidents page is a positive force for change. When we put our history in a public forum, it is available to all of us. The idea of a judge, jury, and executioner is quite different from the idea of a public forum where people describe things that have happened and that have been reported on. : What your message sounds like to me is that you would like to reach out to be a teacher and educator. Some people do that work best by assimiliating into the culture they are trying to reach. For others, that assimiliation may not be possible, or may not be desired at all. And if you would like to take an approach that focuses around "success", there is plenty of that effort here as well -- but also in other organizations and public fora. :Isn't there room for more than one approach, here? There are so many efforts to support women and others in our field. I think it best for you to seek out the ones that exist that are more in alignment with the approach you want to take -- rather than trying to erase the work of so many of us -- work that we regularly are thanked for doing. --Liz Henry (talk) 20:08, February 24, 2013 (UTC) :Liz, :Thanks for your response, especially your friendly tone. Absolutely, there is room for more than one approach, in fact, that is my point, the point of view on this site is very narrow. Groups, over time, self-select, so tends to happen. But, in the end, the perspective on this site, IMO, does not represent a broader group of what "Geek Feminism" is about in our communities. :it's not a matter of erasing someone's hard work. The concern has to be fairness since this does impact negatively people's reputations. In many cases, I do not agree the act was in any way that an incident is sexist or displays sexism. Let me give a couple of examples. :Example one: :Dries mentioned that the (gender neutral) Druplicon (Drupal's mascot) would likely have a sex scandal by the year 2020. '' :So, how is that sexist? How is that even a concern? Does everyone understand this is a graphic that looks like a drop of water? :'Example two:' :''Later, as Dries was discussing goals for the Drupal project, he used "stay at home moms with a tupperware business" as a user story for the people he would like to see using Drupal. This may have gone over fine had he not specifically sited them as being on the "low" end of the technical spectrum. '' :To me, it sounds like there is a lack of appreciation for women who stay at home and have tupperware businesses. If it's the "low end of the technical spectrum" aspect that then qualified this as misogyny, then I would ask why this is seen as anything other than "but of course, that is exactly how that persona should be defined." :If it is believed that this market segment has higher skill in technology, and that Dries was incorrect in his assessment of where these skills are truly at, then let me ask do you honestly believe a large percentage of people with strong technology skill are going to sell tupperware? :Not only is his point correct and factual and valid but it is GOOD that he is looking at these women and trying to ensure Drupal works for them, too. Not all women are professionals, like we are, in fact most are not. Reaching those women with low technical skills means OPPORTUNITY. :If you are suggesting he is sexist if he only focuses on women with skills, then you are, maybe without realizing it, encouraging an approach that further disenfranchises women who do not have strong skills from ever acquiring them. Drupal is a gateway to skill. :In this case, what would be sexist would be IF Dries drew a big red X on the group and said "This group is just women without skill, they are not worth our time. Ignore them." But he said the opposite. He said, "This segment is female, low in technical skill. How do we reach them?." That's AWESOME. :That is not sexist, at all. In fact, it's cause for celebration. It should be lifted up and shared as the kind of thinking other projects should have. Reach out, even to those who are disenfrachised or close to it. :In my opinion, these two must to be removed, they are not sexist in the least. There are more like this. :'How do incidents get included?''' :It might help to understand, to publish criteria since it is harmful to people. You would never want to have it seem like a personal vindetta or not liking someone be a reason or an accusation externally as to why events are listed. :What are the criteria: :- What criteria is used to evaluate an event to validate it is sexist or sexism? :- Who makes the decision? What can we make certain the POV in this group represents the community? :- What interaction, if any, is made with the accused, prior to publishing the information? :- What can they do to recify the problem and therefore avoid the shaming? :- What is the protest process if others disagree with the event inclusion or the manner in which it is described? :I don't mind working through this slowly and nailing down the criteria and processes. I have more questions, examples, but that's probably enough for now. I'll let you guys kind of think about it, see if my comments shed a different light that seems logical. :Again, your friendly response is so appreciated. Thank you. :AmyStephen (talk) 21:20, February 24, 2013 (UTC) :Hi folks - any feedback? Thanks. : 00:47, February 27, 2013 (UTC) :::I'm not finding your comments to be constructive, Amy, and agree with Liz that you might prefer to seek out a space that's better suited to where you're at. As a general rule, the wiki editors have all dealt with a lot of the sort of undermining of the existence of sexism that your comments exhibit, and I'm personally quite tired of explaining introductory feminism when there are already plenty of educational resources for that online. I had initially blocked you because of your edits to Sexualized environment that were effectively calling us "sexist" for pointing out that sexism exists. I unblocked you because (at least) Liz engaged with your comments, but I'm still not seeing much here but the same ol' arguments I've heard over and over from the broader, kyriarchal culture. Monadic (talk) 01:15, February 27, 2013 (UTC)